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Original: 7/9/2009 11:53 PM
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Thursday, July 09, 2009

Of God and Teapots

 (I said only one argument per week, but I've nothing else to do. I'm also irritated that my xanga posts are becoming more apologet-icky)

Everytime I see Celestial Teapot's page I'm reminded to make a post about this. I keep pushing it off, but maybe I've the chutzpah to finally talk about this. Bertrand Russell was the guy who first came up with the comparison between God and Teapots. Each generation after him has enjoyed making their own version, like the Pink Unicorn (this is from atheists of the 60's, no doubt), Invisible Hamsters, and most recently (and most creatively) the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They're all used in a general context nowadays though, rarely used in the way Russell used his Teapots. Let's see how he used it.

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time. 

He begins saying nothing controversial. Basically, because a proposition hasn't been disproven doesn't mean it is proven or that it's reasonable to believe in it. That the existence of aliens hasn't been disproven doesn't give their existence any credence. (The opposite is true too: because the existence of aliens hasn't been proven, their non-existence hasn't been proven.) Then he applies this to God. It's a bit hard to unpack his rhetoric here; it's so thick I'm not actually sure if there's anything more to this than that one bit of logic that the absence of a disproof does not constitute a proof. He adds in a reference to the Inquisition for good measure, seems to take a jab at blind faith. But nowhere here does Russell remotely suggest that it is essentially irrational to believe in a celestial teapot. If that's the case, then nowhere does he imply that it's irrational to believe in a God.

Some people try to make this passage out to say that it's just as plainly irrational to believe in God as it is to believe something like an invisible unicorn. But that's not implied by the text, at least from how I'm reading this. And I'm not sure what's by-default irrational about believing in an invisible unicorn. If one inferred indirectly the existence of a particular thing that is horse-like and has exactly one horn, what's irrational about believing in it? Now, I think it's just plainly untrue that God (whether or not one exists) is on the same par as an invisible pink unicorn or invisible teapot. The reason is that God, unlike a unicorn, if he exists, can be inferred from general states or patterns in the universe. If he exists, he "unifies" all other contingent facts. (I might be getting this idea from Bill Valicella). Other people say that because God is invisible, there's no evidence you can possibly use to support his existence. That's just silly. Alot of things are invisible, or close to invisible, and we infer their existence indirectly from what we can see and from logic. The existence of atoms was inferred from abstract reasoning before it was inferred from empirical research. So I'm not sure if there's anything else to this. What's your take?
 Posted 7/9/2009 11:53 PM - 86 Views - 18 eProps - 17 comments

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17 Comments

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Thank you, this was great.
Posted 7/10/2009 5:24 PM by sheepthatsblack - reply

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@sheepthatsblack - thanks for the rec man!

Posted 7/10/2009 11:04 PM by nyclegodesi24 - reply

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100 eProps!
This is exactly why I think you need a larger readership, your thoughts are superb and your logic is excellent.  THIS ... should be front page material and I hope Xanga picks up on it.
Posted 7/11/2009 12:28 AM by JulieMillerFan Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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I think you're right - Russell doesn't say its irrational to believe in a teapot. Instead, he is (I think rightly) implying that the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the person who asserts that there is a god, pink unicorn, teapot etc. In asserting something you just clamp on to one of infinite possibilities so there's that stubborn question of "why this possibility?"

Whats interesting is what you said about god being on a different level than the teapot because god (well, depending on your conceptual definition of god) can be inferred from universal patterns and all. The fact that god encompasses ethics, history, physics and philosophy can answer the "why this possibility?" question. And you're right that the celestial teapot can't quite do the same because the "why the teapot?" question doesn't have nearly as substantial an answer.

On a kind of related note, the idea that god can be inferred even though god is invisible brings the Higgs boson to mind. If the boson exists it gives beautiful logical sense to the whole standard model of physics, yay! But this boson is just as elusive and tricky as god. Maybe we'll soon come to compare god to subatomic particles - at least this would be a more sound analogy!

And I wholly agree with the previous comment - the front page needs more posts like this.
Posted 7/11/2009 2:08 AM by sonali137 - reply

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All throughout history, the majority of people have believed that some type of God exists. We do not have any history of the majority of people believing in invisible teapots or FSM's. That in itself gives more credence to God, although not proof.
Posted 7/11/2009 2:30 AM by musterion99 - reply

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If there were historical accounts written specifically as such "history" and witnesses in the thousands I would definitely be moved to check into the claims of the Teapot. The amount of evidence for Christ (God) is the convincing factor for me.
Posted 7/11/2009 11:30 AM by MC_Shann Xanga True Member - reply

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All throughout history, the majority of people have believed that some type of God exists. We do not have any history of the majority of people believing in invisible teapots or FSM's. That in itself gives more credence to God, although not proof.


This point of cultural concordance is a bit different from the sort of argument rebutted by the FSM satirization.


The form of religion, I would argue, is much more likely due to common human neurology and common human living conditions. It seems a bit silly to think that disparity like fertility goddesses, the emo Greek pantheon, and the firm OT God were all commonly divinely inspired.

Posted 7/12/2009 12:46 AM by CelestialTeapot - reply

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@musterion99 - Reply above.

Posted 7/12/2009 12:46 AM by CelestialTeapot - reply

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@CelestialTeapot - 

Even in comparing just the Judeo/Christian religion to FSM, it still applies.
Posted 7/12/2009 12:53 AM by musterion99 - reply

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Vallicella's analysis on this topic is fantastic.   


The past is done with as well; but there are plenty of arguments for events in the past.

Posted 7/12/2009 10:29 AM by StrokeofThought Xanga True Member - reply

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@sonali137 - Right, that's a good way of explaining the difference between God and teapots, in terms of their explanatory power. Valicella called the teapot and unicorn an isolated pawn; they're unsupporting and unsupported facts that don't define or explain any other general fact about the universe. and I've never heard of Higgs boson until now as I'm reading of it on wiki, and that's insanely exciting! Really good analogies for ideas and difficulties are always hard to come by. One analogy I'm looking into is that of God being like another mind. We cannot really "see" a person's mind, even if we're studying his brain.

@musterion99 @MC_Shann - Yeah, when people compare God to invisible unicorns, you may push them to answer "what exactly makes invisble unicorns similar to Christianity's God, when we produce arguments and evidence for his existence and there's none for invisible unicorns?" It's such a basic question.

@StrokeofThought - Yes! I'm glad someone else has read his stuff. He's stubbornly logical.

@CelestialTeapot - 


"This point of cultural concordance is a bit different from the sort of argument rebutted by the FSM satirization."
You'll have to forgive me, Russ, because I'm not entirely sure what the above-quoted sentence means. And also, would you say that religious belief in general can be essentially reduced to neurophysiological/anthropological explanations? Do you think it is possible to be a rational Christian?

Posted 7/12/2009 5:23 PM by nyclegodesi24 - reply

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@JulieMillerFan - Thanks to you, alot of people are reading this post. =]

Posted 7/12/2009 5:32 PM by nyclegodesi24 - reply

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William Craig talks about the teapot a little bit: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7249
Posted 7/12/2009 10:20 PM by stuartandabby - reply

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@nyclegodesi24 - Nah, Psalms (75:6-7, this is one of the few times I will say "Look at the King James") states that all promotion is of God, so chalk this one up to Flying Sphagetti Monsters, Aliens & Lil Pink "My Little Pony" Unicorns everywhere.


Your higher apologetics material is needful, and my one encouragement is to continue, and don't lose sight of the one who calls you.  For "Knowledge leads one to pride, but love, love edifies and builds up those who pursue it."  (1 Corinthians 8:1)  You stick to what God's called you to, I'll stick to my exposition of the Word, and ultimately God will be glorified in both.

Posted 7/12/2009 11:35 PM by JulieMillerFan Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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@stuartandabby - you're into apologetics too! thanks for the link. I like that he includes minds as immaterial objects. As usual, WLC (or the staff at Reasonable Faith) is entirely thorough with his refutation.



I agree with you wholeheartedly. We've all different vocations, and it's awesome when we can appreciate greatly the things that others are gifted to do. And your last point is what I've been struggling a bit with. Knowledge is relatively easy to obtain, and it does puff up. Love is relatively hard to do, and it's sometimes flattening and exploding. God bless, and goodnight.

Posted 7/13/2009 12:32 AM by nyclegodesi24 - reply

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You'll have to forgive me, Russ, because I'm not entirely sure what the above-quoted sentence means.


Musterion99 says "FSM" and "teapot" anaologies bad since they fail to account for "X" argument for Christianity. I say that "FSM" and "Teapot" are satires specific to critiquing "Y," that they fail to reply to "X" doesn't mean that they're poor arguments answering "Y."


In this case, "X" is Musterion99's idea is that the cultural ubiquity of "god" points to a common source-- an actual "god."


And also, would you say that religious belief in general can be essentially reduced to neurophysiological/anthropological explanations? Do you think it is possible to be a rational Christian?


I'm an atheist, and I dimiss religion as exactly this. And I used this idea to rebutt Musterion99's argument: Yes, the cultural ubiquity of "god" points to a common source-- but that common motivation may be more neurological and anthropological than an actual "god."


To answer your second question: yes, I believe it's possible to be a rational Christian. I just happen to think that all ya rational Christians are wrong. ^_^

Posted 7/13/2009 11:40 PM by CelestialTeapot - reply

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i love that. so true. just because we haven't proven God doesn't mean we have disproven him either. :)
Posted 8/25/2009 9:58 PM by Xx_Kittt_xX Xanga Premium Member - reply


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